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Post by andreajacobs80 on Sept 29, 2019 16:55:57 GMT -5
I was listening to an interview here, and man, she keeps interrupting Jim with a whole lotta nothin'
I've read a lot of bad stuff about her, but at least it was him who did the work. She never had a job in her life. Jim spent a fortune on her boutique and numerous trips to meet her Count. The least she could have done was let the interviewer ask JIM stuff. We might have had a lot more things answered, because there just isn't enough audio/video interviews.
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Post by mortsahlfan on Sept 29, 2019 17:22:45 GMT -5
I don't know much about her, but I know the interview you are talking about. I think it was 1970 and yeah, she was annoying. I think a tiny part of it is her voice.
I have the book "Angels Dance and Angels Die" and maybe I'll learn something?
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Post by caitlin on Sept 30, 2019 9:38:52 GMT -5
As far as 'Angels Dance and Angels Die', the author, Patricia Butler, has since been exposed as a total con artist and the book is not known to be accurate. A friend read me a little passage and it's weird, Butler has all of these one-on-one conversations with Jim and Pam. How in the hell would Butler know what they said to each other word-for-word.
The Jim Morrison Scrapbook by Jim Henke is a good resource. You learn more about Pam, her childhood, what she was like, about the relationship between Jim Morrison and her parents, a lot of stories from Pam's mother.
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Post by caitlin on Sept 30, 2019 10:13:24 GMT -5
I started out pretty much hating Pam. She was not well-liked in Jim Morrison's inner circle and there are a lot of negative stories about her.
But, we have to remember that Pam put Jim's problems down to fame, the band and the easy access all of this gave him to being allowed to booze it up and use a lot of drugs. It is well-documented that Pam hated what being in the public eye and the pressures of being in The Doors was doing to Jim Morrison.
So, we can't say she was money-hungry or fame-hungry and that she obviously cared about Jim and wanted him to clean up his act and get healthy. She got him to visit a psychologist at least two different times.
Also, I don't how likeable I would be if I were Jim Morrison's girlfriend. Disappearing for days on his drunken adventures, the constant cheating, having Jim's little side pieces wanting to confront her and be nasty to her, sometimes coming home and finding Morrison and his temporary new little friends there and Jim Morrison being generally hard to live with - I don't know if there'd be any nice stories there would be about me if I were an unstable young woman in my early twenties dealing with all of this.
It is possible that Pam has been greatly misunderstood and is seen as someone who is somehow to blame from all of Morrison's problems.
The more I learn about her the clearer it becomes that she was a troubled young woman.
I do seriously wonder if Pam was sexually abused while she was growing up. Drops out of high school, heads for L.A., starts using hard drugs, can't let go of a guy who doesn't exactly treat her or her feelings with respect and the biggest red flag of all, using her body to get what she wanted. She had all of the earmarks.
It sounds like she could give it as good Jim Morrison gave it, she wasn't afraid to tell him where to get off, but it also sounds like she was also a fragile person.
There are those who hold her responsible for Jim Morrison's death. Classic case of "blame the bitch" (with a lot of these rumors coming from Morrison's jealous would-be girlfriends). Between the guy who owned the nightclub where Jim Morrison spent his last evening and Marianne Faithfull it has been revealed that Morrison was responsible for his drug and alcohol intake that evening and that, in his usual push-it-to-limit risky style, he was well aware he was using a bad mix of heroin and alcohol.
Pam's family really did not seek out the media in order to tell Pam's side of the story and Pam did not seek out the spotlight for herself so, unfortunately, we don't know as much about her as we do Jim Morrison.
I don't know if I could have been friends with Pam if I knew she and Jim back in the day, I probably wouldn't have liked her either, but I don't know that she has been treated fairly and I don't think people take into consideration all that she was trying to deal with.
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Post by mortsahlfan on Sept 30, 2019 11:05:16 GMT -5
As far as 'Angels Dance and Angels Die', the author, Patricia Butler, has since been exposed as a total con artist and the book is not known to be accurate. A friend read me a little passage and it's weird, Butler has all of these one-on-one conversations with Jim and Pam. How in the hell would Butler know what they said to each other word-for-word. The Jim Morrison Scrapbook by Jim Henke is a good resource. You learn more about Pam, her childhood, what she was like, about the relationship between Jim Morrison and her parents, a lot of stories from Pam's mother. Good to know. I bought the Scrapbook about a month ago, and have had "Angels Dance and Angels Die" for years, and did some random reading, and found many quotes I have read in other books or articles.
I'm always skeptical of someone outside the inner-circle, especially when there is no one else to corroborate it, and especially since Jim and Pam are dead, and both of their families have been pretty silent.
Do you think its worth to read? The one thing I would hate to have happen is to get inaccuracies in my brain that I might repeat in the future. I'd hate myself for giving bad information, and usually I can't always source what I say in an off-hand conversation. But even the "I don't know the source, but _______" can have an affect on the person I could be telling this to, or if its online, many, many more. And I know those first-impressions are imprinted pretty well, even if you find future information to dispute that.
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Post by andreajacobs80 on Sept 30, 2019 16:59:23 GMT -5
I started out pretty much hating Pam. She was not well-liked in Jim Morrison's inner circle and there are a lot of negative stories about her. But, we have to remember that Pam put Jim's problems down to fame, the band and the easy access all of this gave him to being allowed to booze it up and use a lot of drugs. It is well-documented that Pam hated what being in the public eye and the pressures of being in The Doors was doing to Jim Morrison. So, we can't say she was money-hungry or fame-hungry and that she obviously cared about Jim and wanted him to clean up his act and get healthy. She got him to visit a psychologist at least two different times. Also, I don't how likeable I would be if I were Jim Morrison's girlfriend. Disappearing for days on his drunken adventures, the constant cheating, having Jim's little side pieces wanting to confront her and be nasty to her, sometimes coming home and finding Morrison and his temporary new little friends there and Jim Morrison being generally hard to live with - I don't know if there'd be any nice stories there would be about me if I were an unstable young woman in my early twenties dealing with all of this. It is possible that Pam has been greatly misunderstood and is seen as someone who is somehow to blame from all of Morrison's problems. The more I learn about her the clearer it becomes that she was a troubled young woman. I do seriously wonder if Pam was sexually abused while she was growing up. Drops out of high school, heads for L.A., starts using hard drugs, can't let go of a guy who doesn't exactly treat her or her feelings with respect and the biggest red flag of all, using her body to get what she wanted. She had all of the earmarks. It sounds like she could give it as good Jim Morrison gave it, she wasn't afraid to tell him where to get off, but it also sounds like she was also a fragile person. There are those who hold her responsible for Jim Morrison's death. Classic case of "blame the bitch" (with a lot of these rumors coming from Morrison's jealous would-be girlfriends). Between the guy who owned the nightclub where Jim Morrison spent his last evening and Marianne Faithfull it has been revealed that Morrison was responsible for his drug and alcohol intake that evening and that, in his usual push-it-to-limit risky style, he was well aware he was using a bad mix of heroin and alcohol. Pam's family really did not seek out the media in order to tell Pam's side of the story and Pam did not seek out the spotlight for herself so, unfortunately, we don't know as much about her as we do Jim Morrison. I don't know if I could have been friends with Pam if I knew she and Jim back in the day, I probably wouldn't have liked her either, but I don't know that she has been treated fairly and I don't think people take into consideration all that she was trying to deal with.
From everything I've read and observed, it seems like Pam pushed the poetry in a tactic to have him all to herself. They barely lived with each other, and she did a ton of cheating herself. She slept with two of his friends, something so low even Jim didn't know. Paul Ferrara and Tom Baker both admitted this, and Paul said that Jim confronted him about it, but kinda left it at that.
Jim was her golden goose, too. We know her life before, dropping out, trouble. Even her mom said she knew this world wasn't for Pam, and that she wouldn't make it.
Listen to that interview. She butts in at least 30 times and only parrots or repeats what Jim just said with a couple of different words. But I don't think she was a "Yoko".. The band also tried hard, including hiring multiple bodyguards with their money, but even John said in his book that everyone made money off of Jim's suffering.
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Post by caitlin on Sept 30, 2019 19:02:52 GMT -5
I won't argue. Pam comes across as unlikeable and she probably was. But then again she would come home to things like Pamela Des Barres lying on the floor with her dress over her head naked from the waist down with Jim Morrison crouched in the corner yelling "GET IT ON!" (meaning he wanted to see some girl on girl action.) As far as cheating and being sleazy? As I said, Pam could obviously give it as good as she got it. That would not have been my reaction but apparently she was willing to "go there". Jim Morrison was still calling Mary Werbelow asking to get back together with her when he started living with Pam, was still making lyrical references to Mary Werbelow while he was living with Pam but he felt the need to keep Pam around despite having many, many opportunities to end the relationship. And while continuing to stick his member into anything with a pulse no matter how many times Pam got fed up and left him. They were both pretty screwed up as far their definition of the word relationship and in their interpretation of "the Summer of Love" or "free love". That interview is one of the rare times Pam really took part in anything that was Doors-related. I believe that Mary Werbelow was Jim Morrison's one true love, the only woman he ever proposed to, and that after she left and after he realized she wasn't coming back he just basically said "f**k it" and began the wild, reckless ride which was the last five years of his life. www.sptimes.com/2005/09/25/Doors/Mary_and_Jim_to_the_e.shtml |
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Post by caitlin on Sept 30, 2019 19:15:19 GMT -5
As far as 'Angels Dance and Angels Die', the author, Patricia Butler, has since been exposed as a total con artist and the book is not known to be accurate. A friend read me a little passage and it's weird, Butler has all of these one-on-one conversations with Jim and Pam. How in the hell would Butler know what they said to each other word-for-word. The Jim Morrison Scrapbook by Jim Henke is a good resource. You learn more about Pam, her childhood, what she was like, about the relationship between Jim Morrison and her parents, a lot of stories from Pam's mother. Good to know. I bought the Scrapbook about a month ago, and have had "Angels Dance and Angels Die" for years, and did some random reading, and found many quotes I have read in other books or articles.
I'm always skeptical of someone outside the inner-circle, especially when there is no one else to corroborate it, and especially since Jim and Pam are dead, and both of their families have been pretty silent.
Do you think its worth to read? The one thing I would hate to have happen is to get inaccuracies in my brain that I might repeat in the future. I'd hate myself for giving bad information, and usually I can't always source what I say in an off-hand conversation. But even the "I don't know the source, but _______" can have an affect on the person I could be telling this to, or if its online, many, many more. And I know those first-impressions are imprinted pretty well, even if you find future information to dispute that. Is it worth a read? Well...Patricia Butler claimed that she was going to donate the profits from 'Angels Dance & Angels Die' in order to create a scholarship in Pamela's name (in what, I don't know, as Pamela was a high school drop-out and never really had a career). It was later revealed that Pamela Courson's family had never heard of Butler and never heard anything about a scholarship in Pamela's name. So Butler has been busted big time - in that instance and in the things included in her book - as far as her ability to be honest. It looks like Butler slapped together dates and facts that had already been published and then added in her own fantasies. If you don't take it too seriously it might be fun to read, if you want some light entertainment. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot out there about Pam, other than Henke's book. There is this website, you may have already seen it: pamelasusancoursonmorrison.wordpress.com/ |
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Post by Admin on Oct 1, 2019 7:33:37 GMT -5
I won't argue. Pam comes across as unlikeable and she probably was. But then again she would come home to things like Pamela Des Barres lying on the floor with her dress over her head naked from the waist down with Jim Morrison crouched in the corner yelling "GET IT ON!" (meaning he wanted to see some girl on girl action.) As far as cheating and being sleazy? As I said, Pam could obviously give it as good as she got it. That would not have been my reaction but apparently she was willing to "go there". Jim Morrison was still calling Mary Werbelow asking to get back together with her when he started living with Pam, was still making lyrical references to Mary Werbelow while he was living with Pam but he felt the need to keep Pam around despite having many, many opportunities to end the relationship. And while continuing to stick his member into anything with a pulse no matter how many times Pam got fed up and left him. They were both pretty screwed up as far their definition of the word relationship and in their interpretation of "the Summer of Love" or "free love". That interview is one of the rare times Pam really took part in anything that was Doors-related. I believe that Mary Werbelow was Jim Morrison's one true love, the only woman he ever proposed to, and that after she left and after he realized she wasn't coming back he just basically said "f**k it" and began the wild, reckless ride which was the last five years of his life. www.sptimes.com/2005/09/25/Doors/Mary_and_Jim_to_the_e.shtmlDo you believe those first 3 albums were dedicated to Mary? The only time I ever heard of it was from the only interview she ever did. |
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Post by caitlin on Oct 1, 2019 8:39:23 GMT -5
I won't argue. Pam comes across as unlikeable and she probably was. But then again she would come home to things like Pamela Des Barres lying on the floor with her dress over her head naked from the waist down with Jim Morrison crouched in the corner yelling "GET IT ON!" (meaning he wanted to see some girl on girl action.) As far as cheating and being sleazy? As I said, Pam could obviously give it as good as she got it. That would not have been my reaction but apparently she was willing to "go there". Jim Morrison was still calling Mary Werbelow asking to get back together with her when he started living with Pam, was still making lyrical references to Mary Werbelow while he was living with Pam but he felt the need to keep Pam around despite having many, many opportunities to end the relationship. And while continuing to stick his member into anything with a pulse no matter how many times Pam got fed up and left him. They were both pretty screwed up as far their definition of the word relationship and in their interpretation of "the Summer of Love" or "free love". That interview is one of the rare times Pam really took part in anything that was Doors-related. I believe that Mary Werbelow was Jim Morrison's one true love, the only woman he ever proposed to, and that after she left and after he realized she wasn't coming back he just basically said "f**k it" and began the wild, reckless ride which was the last five years of his life. www.sptimes.com/2005/09/25/Doors/Mary_and_Jim_to_the_e.shtmlDo you believe those first 3 albums were dedicated to Mary? The only time I ever heard of it was from the only interview she ever did. I do believe that Jim Morrison wrote the songs for the first three Doors' albums about Mary. It has been confirmed that 'The End' was written, in part, about their breakup. Since Mary was an aspiring actress I think Jim Morrison thought she would be impressed. Interesting coincidence that Jim Morrison began to lose interest in The Doors after their third album. Having hit songs failed to win Mary back. |
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Post by andreajacobs80 on Oct 1, 2019 11:35:51 GMT -5
Good to know. I bought the Scrapbook about a month ago, and have had "Angels Dance and Angels Die" for years, and did some random reading, and found many quotes I have read in other books or articles.
I'm always skeptical of someone outside the inner-circle, especially when there is no one else to corroborate it, and especially since Jim and Pam are dead, and both of their families have been pretty silent.
Do you think its worth to read? The one thing I would hate to have happen is to get inaccuracies in my brain that I might repeat in the future. I'd hate myself for giving bad information, and usually I can't always source what I say in an off-hand conversation. But even the "I don't know the source, but _______" can have an affect on the person I could be telling this to, or if its online, many, many more. And I know those first-impressions are imprinted pretty well, even if you find future information to dispute that. Is it worth a read? Well...Patricia Butler claimed that she was going to donate the profits from 'Angels Dance & Angels Die' in order to create a scholarship in Pamela's name (in what, I don't know, as Pamela was a high school drop-out and never really had a career). It was later revealed that Pamela Courson's family had never heard of Butler and never heard anything about a scholarship in Pamela's name. So Butler has been busted big time - in that instance and in the things included in her book - as far as her ability to be honest. It looks like Butler slapped together dates and facts that had already been published and then added in her own fantasies. If you don't take it too seriously it might be fun to read, if you want some light entertainment. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot out there about Pam, other than Henke's book. There is this website, you may have already seen it: pamelasusancoursonmorrison.wordpress.com/
I definitely knew that about "The End". Robby said his parents were out of town, and how it started as a short goodbye love song, but good thing they were in the clubs jamming it out. I really wish they would have played The Whiskey in 70, but when Jim wanted to do it, the others didn't, and when the others did, Jim supposedly didn't show up.
That's really too bad that an author would do that. So much for ethics. Maybe this can be the book I buy last, when there's nothing left.
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Post by caitlin on Oct 1, 2019 15:40:35 GMT -5
I definitely knew that about "The End". Robby said his parents were out of town, and how it started as a short goodbye love song, but good thing they were in the clubs jamming it out. I really wish they would have played The Whiskey in 70, but when Jim wanted to do it, the others didn't, and when the others did, Jim supposedly didn't show up.
That's really too bad that an author would do that. So much for ethics. Maybe this can be the book I buy last, when there's nothing left. Years later, reading the lyrics to 'Shaman's Blues', it's pretty clear that this song, at least in my opinion, was also about Mary: "Will you give another chance? Will you try, little try? Please stop and you remember, We were together, anyway, all right...How you must of think and wondered, How I must feel, Out on the meadows, While you run the field, I'm alone for you, And I cry" www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/doors/shamansblues.htmlI do believe that Mary Werbelow was "the one" in Jim Morrison's heart and mind, his one true love who broke his heart and that Pam came second. Butler's book, thankfully, not a bestseller and it's a shame that she is not the only "author" who has pulled this kind of stuff. It's a shame that when you have a pretty mysterious figure like Jim Morrison that there always be people out there trying to profit off of b.s. by being paid good money to spin their own version of the truth and their own version of reality. Even the popular 'No One Here Gets Out Alive' had been heavily criticized by those who actually knew Jim Morrison, calling the book 'Nothing Here But A Lot of Lies'. I guess a lot of things were taken out of context and a lot of things were just flat-out false. Frank Lisciandro's, 'Jim Morrison: Friends Gathered Together' doesn't offer a lot about Pam - except to confirm that she was rude and obnoxious to Jim's friends and that very few of his friends liked her, to put it mildly - but you get a better sense of Jim Morrison and it does offer some insights into his childhood. |
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Post by andreajacobs80 on Oct 1, 2019 16:27:55 GMT -5
I definitely knew that about "The End". Robby said his parents were out of town, and how it started as a short goodbye love song, but good thing they were in the clubs jamming it out. I really wish they would have played The Whiskey in 70, but when Jim wanted to do it, the others didn't, and when the others did, Jim supposedly didn't show up.
That's really too bad that an author would do that. So much for ethics. Maybe this can be the book I buy last, when there's nothing left. Years later, reading the lyrics to 'Shaman's Blues', it's pretty clear that this song, at least in my opinion, was also about Mary: "Will you give another chance? Will you try, little try? Please stop and you remember, We were together, anyway, all right...How you must of think and wondered, How I must feel, Out on the meadows, While you run the field, I'm alone for you, And I cry" www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/doors/shamansblues.htmlI do believe that Mary Werbelow was "the one" in Jim Morrison's heart and mind, his one true love who broke his heart and that Pam came second. Butler's book, thankfully, not a bestseller and it's a shame that she is not the only "author" who has pulled this kind of stuff. It's a shame that when you have a pretty mysterious figure like Jim Morrison that there always be people out there trying to profit off of b.s. by being paid good money to spin their own version of the truth and their own version of reality. Even the popular 'No One Here Gets Out Alive' had been heavily criticized by those who actually knew Jim Morrison, calling the book 'Nothing Here But A Lot of Lies'. I guess a lot of things were taken out of context and a lot of things were just flat-out false. Frank Lisciandro's, 'Jim Morrison: Friends Gathered Together' doesn't offer a lot about Pam - except to confirm that she was rude and obnoxious to Jim's friends and that very few of his friends liked her, to put it mildly - but you get a better sense of Jim Morrison and it does offer some insights into his childhood.
I checked that out on here, along with some other stuff in the BOOK section and would do a search for "Pam" and every comment was negative, and those were the ones closest. Also, all the mentions of Mary were very positive. She walked in on Jim with another woman and broke up with him. They saw each other at least once, Tandy Martin too, right? (I remember the story of him forgetting to put her name on the list in NYC)
P.S. - I looked at those pics on that wordpress site and she looks different in almost every picture.
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Post by mortsahlfan on Oct 1, 2019 17:14:21 GMT -5
As far as 'Angels Dance and Angels Die', the author, Patricia Butler, has since been exposed as a total con artist and the book is not known to be accurate. A friend read me a little passage and it's weird, Butler has all of these one-on-one conversations with Jim and Pam. How in the hell would Butler know what they said to each other word-for-word. The Jim Morrison Scrapbook by Jim Henke is a good resource. You learn more about Pam, her childhood, what she was like, about the relationship between Jim Morrison and her parents, a lot of stories from Pam's mother. Do you remember anything false (so I can avoid it) in the book? |
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Post by caitlin on Oct 1, 2019 20:29:04 GMT -5
I checked that out on here, along with some other stuff in the BOOK section and would do a search for "Pam" and every comment was negative, and those were the ones closest. Also, all the mentions of Mary were very positive. She walked in on Jim with another woman and broke up with him. They saw each other at least once, Tandy Martin too, right? (I remember the story of him forgetting to put her name on the list in NYC)
P.S. - I looked at those pics on that wordpress site and she looks different in almost every picture. Yes, Mary said that she caught him with another girl at one point, she was hugely pissed off (ran over the girl's front yard fence as she was pulling out of her driveway). She and Jim remained together but their relationship kind of limped along after that before she asked to "take a break". 'Jim and Mary, To The End' web.archive.org/web/20051124223525/http:/www.sptimes.com/2005/09/25/Doors/Mary_and_Jim_to_the_e.shtmlI guess he did see Tandy Martin at least once more - Tandy was also interviewed for the 'Friends Gathered Together' book - first I've heard of him not leaving her name at the door. lol! Or maybe I just forgot that story. (Sheesh Jim!) Yeah, Pam was at least known as a fashionista and known for being fashion-forward. Not being a huge clothes horse I never saw it, but others have pointed it out. I hated the whole hair curls bunched up on her head look, I thought it looked awful. Pam was pretty, not beautiful, but very pretty in a cute school girl kind of way. 'Friends Gathered Together' is not as hard on her as 'No One Here Gets Out Alive' but it is made clear that those in Jim's inner circle did not like her. They dreaded it when Pam accompanied Jim to parties or get-togethers because they would just fight the whole time, she like to get on Jim's nerves and, as we all know, her other form of revenge was to spend Jim's money. Pam did earn the bad reputation she had as far as the other three Doors and Jim Morrison's friends. I guess she wasn't exactly at her best when she was around the people she conveniently blamed for Jim's problems. The description of Pam's state of mind after Jim died was sad, though. Babe Hill, who was Jim's close friend and body guard, sent Pam a little letter of condolence after Jim died and when Hill attended Pam's funeral he was going through the receiving line where everyone was offering their condolences to Pam's mother. When she met Babe Mrs. Courson very nicely asked him, "And who are you?" He replied that he was Babe Hill, a friend of Jim's, and Mrs. Courson face lit up and she said, "So you're Babe! Pam got your letter! She showed it to me and said, 'Look Mom, he didn't just love Jim, he loved me too!'. " (Any friends Pam had pretty much abandoned her after the main attraction had died. I think Diane Gardiner was one of the few to remain friends with her.) This wasn't in the book but I saw a little article written by a guy who met Pam months after Jim had died. They were all hanging out at someone's house in L.A. and he said that was she pretty stoned and spacey (translation: probably using heroin) and that every single sentence that came out of her mouth started with, "Jim always used to say...Jim always used to say...". But it seems that, in the end, Jim's friends do acknowledge that Jim did have feelings for Pam and that she did remain loyal to him and that she, as much as she could, tried to help him. |
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Post by caitlin on Oct 1, 2019 20:56:48 GMT -5
As far as 'Angels Dance and Angels Die', the author, Patricia Butler, has since been exposed as a total con artist and the book is not known to be accurate. A friend read me a little passage and it's weird, Butler has all of these one-on-one conversations with Jim and Pam. How in the hell would Butler know what they said to each other word-for-word. The Jim Morrison Scrapbook by Jim Henke is a good resource. You learn more about Pam, her childhood, what she was like, about the relationship between Jim Morrison and her parents, a lot of stories from Pam's mother. Do you remember anything false (so I can avoid it) in the book? The one story that jumps out at me is this "conversation" between Jim and Pam where Jim, according to Butler, has a bunch of Pam's unpaid parking tickets and he keeps teasing Pam that he is going to turn her into the police for not paying these tickets. According to Butler, Jim did turn Pam into the police and then went and bailed her out and Pam was just SO mad at him! Let's break it down: 1. No one has ever heard this story before. 2. Butler implies that, for some reason, Jim Morrison constantly walked around with a stack of Pam's unpaid parking tickets in his pocket just in case he wanted to get revenge on her. (Okaaaay.) 3. Butler wants us to believe that Jim Morrison who was very anti-authority and who liked to provoke the police would hold on to these parking tickets and then turn his "cosmic mate" into the people he didn't really respect. 4. Did I mention no one has ever heard this story before, or since? Butler has this whole back-and-forth conversation between the two of them. How does she know what exactly was said? I mean the whole story was ridiculous. (Can't stress this enough - no one else has ever heard this before. I'm sure Pam, or Jim even, would've mentioned it to at least someone, to at least one other person.) The book is regarded as a Harlequin Romance novel treatment of a relationship between a troubled young man who drank copious amounts of alcohol and consumed an untold number of drugs and a troubled and fairly promiscuous young woman who liked to use hard drugs. I think only the same people who were willing to be interviewed for 'No One Here Gets Out Alive' were also interviewed for Butler's book. So there is stuff in there that is based in fact but, for the most part, Butler really seems to go with her own fantasies. Check around for reviews and see what you think. There are some pretty good photos in it of Jim and Pam as children and stuff. It might be a fun read and there might some interesting revelations but just take Butler with a grain of salt. For a book that is supposed to be a positive and fair look at Pam - Butler ends the book with Pam confessing to having "murdered" Jim Morrison. And this is according ONLY to Patricia Butler and it's a very popular theory that Pam-haters love to repeat. In the last few years of her life Pam was never straight with anyone regarding what exactly happened the night Jim died but it sounds like she was well aware that Doors' fans and the media were more than prepared to lay the blame at her feet, no matter what the circumstances were and during this time Pam was also going downhill fast and suffering with some terrible mental health and substance abuse issues. If you ever get the chance, this is a long read and the misspelled words tells me that this has been translated, but I do think that this is the most accurate version of events as far as what happened in Paris on July 3, 1971: 'L.A. Woman and The Last Days of Jim Morrison' www.loudersound.com/features/l-a-woman-and-the-last-days-of-jim-morrison |
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Post by mortsahlfan on Oct 2, 2019 7:02:42 GMT -5
Do you remember anything false (so I can avoid it) in the book? The one story that jumps out at me is this "conversation" between Jim and Pam where Jim, according to Butler, has a bunch of Pam's unpaid parking tickets and he keeps teasing Pam that he is going to turn her into the police for not paying these tickets. According to Butler, Jim did turn Pam into the police and then went and bailed her out and Pam was just SO mad at him! Let's break it down: 1. No one has ever heard this story before. 2. Butler implies that, for some reason, Jim Morrison constantly walked around with a stack of Pam's unpaid parking tickets in his pocket just in case he wanted to get revenge on her. (Okaaaay.) 3. Butler wants us to believe that Jim Morrison who was very anti-authority and who liked to provoke the police would hold on to these parking tickets and then turn his "cosmic mate" into the people he didn't really respect. 4. Did I mention no one has ever heard this story before, or since? Butler has this whole back-and-forth conversation between the two of them. How does she know what exactly was said? I mean the whole story was ridiculous. (Can't stress this enough - no one else has ever heard this before. I'm sure Pam, or Jim even, would've mentioned it to at least someone, to at least one other person.) The book is regarded as a Harlequin Romance novel treatment of a relationship between a troubled young man who drank copious amounts of alcohol and consumed an untold number of drugs and a troubled and fairly promiscuous young woman who liked to use hard drugs. I think only the same people who were willing to be interviewed for 'No One Here Gets Out Alive' were also interviewed for Butler's book. So there is stuff in there that is based in fact but, for the most part, Butler really seems to go with her own fantasies. Check around for reviews and see what you think. There are some pretty good photos in it of Jim and Pam as children and stuff. It might be a fun read and there might some interesting revelations but just take Butler with a grain of salt. For a book that is supposed to be a positive and fair look at Pam - Butler ends the book with Pam confessing to having "murdered" Jim Morrison. And this is according ONLY to Patricia Butler and it's a very popular theory that Pam-haters love to repeat. In the last few years of her life Pam was never straight with anyone regarding what exactly happened the night Jim died but it sounds like she was well aware that Doors' fans and the media were more than prepared to lay the blame at her feet, no matter what the circumstances were and during this time Pam was also going downhill fast and suffering with some terrible mental health and substance abuse issues. If you ever get the chance, this is a long read and the misspelled words tells me that this has been translated, but I do think that this is the most accurate version of events as far as what happened in Paris on July 3, 1971: 'L.A. Woman and The Last Days of Jim Morrison' www.loudersound.com/features/l-a-woman-and-the-last-days-of-jim-morrison Darn, that page is not around anymore (last link, last days of jim morrison). I also read that story of the tickets, probably in Stephen Davis' book, which I thought had a lot of bullshit. I heard him in an interview screwing up dates, and basically taking a quote and misinterpreting it (British thing? But I doubt it)..
Odd thing is, The Doors (outside of Jim), didn't really drink, etc... You mention Babe, and he WAS a guy who liked to drink.
I'd love to read a book about Pamela's last 3 years.
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Post by mortsahlfan on Oct 2, 2019 7:11:55 GMT -5
However, this link worked.. Thanks!
(Must have been temporarily down)
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Post by caitlin on Oct 2, 2019 10:44:23 GMT -5
andreajacobs80, mortsahlfan There is also Danny Sugerman's book 'Wonderland Avenue'. He talks about taking Quaaludes and snorting heroin with Pam and talks about the day she died.
“When I arrived at Pamela’s I wanted to floor the car and get the hell away. My heart groaned, my throat clenched, my eyes burned. The police and the paramedics were wheeling a stretcher down the path from her apartment. There was a body lying on it covered by a sheet. I gripped the steering wheel and cursed God.
"F*ck you God! F*ck you!" I just sat in the car and stared away. I felt anger and I felt loss and I felt fear. I felt pain and I hated it. “Take me goddammit! Why don’t you just get it over with and take me? Take me!” - Danny Sugerman, 'Wonderland Avenue'
I think it is in this book where Sugerman relays that Pam told him that Jim Morrison had started snorting small amounts of heroin. Either before they left for Paris or after they arrived in Paris, not sure and that Pam tells Sugerman, "It was my stash", referring to the night Jim Morrison died.
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Post by mortsahlfan on Oct 2, 2019 10:57:51 GMT -5
andreajacobs80, mortsahlfan There is also Danny Sugerman's book 'Wonderland Avenue'. He talks about taking Quaaludes and snorting heroin with Pam and talks about the day she died. “When I arrived at Pamela’s I wanted to floor the car and get the hell away. My heart groaned, my throat clenched, my eyes burned. The police and the paramedics were wheeling a stretcher down the path from her apartment. There was a body lying on it covered by a sheet. I gripped the steering wheel and cursed God. "F*ck you God! F*ck you!" I just sat in the car and stared away. I felt anger and I felt loss and I felt fear. I felt pain and I hated it. “Take me goddammit! Why don’t you just get it over with and take me? Take me!” - Danny Sugerman, 'Wonderland Avenue' I think it is in this book where Sugerman relays that Pam told him that Jim Morrison had started snorting small amounts of heroin. Either before they left for Paris or after they arrived in Paris, not sure and that Pam tells Sugerman, "It was my stash", referring to the night Jim Morrison died. Is it a good book? I've heard nothing but bad things about Danny. |
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Post by caitlin on Oct 2, 2019 13:50:01 GMT -5
andreajacobs80, mortsahlfan There is also Danny Sugerman's book 'Wonderland Avenue'. He talks about taking Quaaludes and snorting heroin with Pam and talks about the day she died. “When I arrived at Pamela’s I wanted to floor the car and get the hell away. My heart groaned, my throat clenched, my eyes burned. The police and the paramedics were wheeling a stretcher down the path from her apartment. There was a body lying on it covered by a sheet. I gripped the steering wheel and cursed God. "F*ck you God! F*ck you!" I just sat in the car and stared away. I felt anger and I felt loss and I felt fear. I felt pain and I hated it. “Take me goddammit! Why don’t you just get it over with and take me? Take me!” - Danny Sugerman, 'Wonderland Avenue' I think it is in this book where Sugerman relays that Pam told him that Jim Morrison had started snorting small amounts of heroin. Either before they left for Paris or after they arrived in Paris, not sure and that Pam tells Sugerman, "It was my stash", referring to the night Jim Morrison died. Is it a good book? I've heard nothing but bad things about Danny. It got good reviews and Danny Sugerman was a good writer but, yeah, you have to take Sugerman with a grain of salt. The book seems to be mostly about him and his experiences with drugs and his experiences during the 1960s. (So, this really isn't a Jim & Pam book, but there are parts of it where Sugerman talks about them.) I have to remember that these biographies or tell-all books are designed to sell, they are designed to make money and that probably no one is 100% truthful and stop harping about it - lol! I guess Danny Sugerman's tales of hanging out at Jim's house, doing his homework while Jim and Pam made dinner and all that kind of stuff has turned out to be false. I don't what it is with people and Jim Morrison and the relationship they WISHED they had with him. |
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Post by andreajacobs80 on Oct 2, 2019 14:58:00 GMT -5
I read that Danny was only kept around because "he knew where the bodies are"
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Post by mortsahlfan on Oct 2, 2019 15:45:45 GMT -5
In the end, Jim would go back to Pam.
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Post by sadtogladness on Jun 26, 2020 8:51:49 GMT -5
Pam's always been my ultimate 60's crush. I find her fascinating, although she probably wouldn't nearly be as such if it wasn't for her association as Jim's "cosmic mate".
The part I find interesting is that there's no definitive description of her: She's been described as smart, stupid, stylish, dirty, shy, bitchy and aloof, money and status obsessed, only concerned about Jim's poetry (clearly, not a stream for heavy revenue), a prostitute, not a prostitute, a junkie, not a junkie.
I'd probably trust the opinions of some of Pam's closest friends, but those in the Doors camp, who knows? They all have our agendas, and their opinions, and it's doubtful that most who only had a passing relationship with her knew enough to really give an intelligent opinion.
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Post by andreajacobs80 on Jun 26, 2020 15:30:02 GMT -5
Pam's always been my ultimate 60's crush. I find her fascinating, although she probably wouldn't nearly be as such if it wasn't for her association as Jim's "cosmic mate". The part I find interesting is that there's no definitive description of her: She's been described as smart, stupid, stylish, dirty, shy, bitchy and aloof, money and status obsessed, only concerned about Jim's poetry (clearly, not a stream for heavy revenue), a prostitute, not a prostitute, a junkie, not a junkie. I'd probably trust the opinions of some of Pam's closest friends, but those in the Doors camp, who knows? They all have our agendas, and their opinions, and it's doubtful that most who only had a passing relationship with her knew enough to really give an intelligent opinion. I wouldn't trust her friends, because I expect them to only say good things about her. Even The Doors don't want to ruffle feathers. I found her to be ditsy, and kinda like Yoko Ono, always interjecting her two cents when it's not needed. Using their man's fame to get a word in. I don't think she gave a shit about Jim's poetry, it's obviously her being possessive and insecure.
I don't know anyone who ever thought of her as a non-junkie, though.
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Post by sadtogladness on Jun 26, 2020 19:10:37 GMT -5
Pam's always been my ultimate 60's crush. I find her fascinating, although she probably wouldn't nearly be as such if it wasn't for her association as Jim's "cosmic mate". The part I find interesting is that there's no definitive description of her: She's been described as smart, stupid, stylish, dirty, shy, bitchy and aloof, money and status obsessed, only concerned about Jim's poetry (clearly, not a stream for heavy revenue), a prostitute, not a prostitute, a junkie, not a junkie. I'd probably trust the opinions of some of Pam's closest friends, but those in the Doors camp, who knows? They all have our agendas, and their opinions, and it's doubtful that most who only had a passing relationship with her knew enough to really give an intelligent opinion. I wouldn't trust her friends, because I expect them to only say good things about her. Even The Doors don't want to ruffle feathers. I found her to be ditsy, and kinda like Yoko Ono, always interjecting her two cents when it's not needed. Using their man's fame to get a word in. I don't think she gave a shit about Jim's poetry, it's obviously her being possessive and insecure.
I don't know anyone who ever thought of her as a non-junkie, though.
I know the interview you're mentioning (Ben Torres). It's recorded with Pam piping into some of Ben's posed questions, but honestly, I love that. I think it's fascinating that you can hear all the goings on in that room during the interview: The stereo, the people that decided to drop by, Jim ordering food and booze, the sirens outside, Pam and the others having conversations. It's so fly on the wall, it's amazing to listen to.
I do give Pam a hall pass on that because Ben's effectively the odd man out. He had no idea he would run into Jim, so the interview was completely impromptu. He was at Diane's apartment, for whatever reason, and Jim just happened to pop by, looking for Pam. And it sounds like a little house party was going on.
Heroin in general is a rough drug. Some have labeled Pam a dabbler, others a junkie. I've known both types with regard to drugs. But I agree that you're really playing with fire when doing hard drugs, as opposed to pot or psychedelics.
She could've used Jim for his money, but I just think their relationship is a textbook example of a dysfunctional one. They both weren't angels, by any stretch.
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